An Amazing Quote
"This grace which God freely gives to the vessels of mercy, begins with illuminating the heart. It does not find man’s will good, but makes it so. It chooses first, in order that it may be chosen; nor is it received unless it first work in the heart of man. Therefore, both the reception of grace and the desire for it are the work of grace itself." —Fulgentius (468-533)
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It is a curious thing indeed when one tries to “reconcile” man’s “free will” with God’s soveriegnty. Spurgeon staunchly refused to do it saying they did not need to be reconciled as they are not enemies (see “My Favorite Quotes” page). I understand it this way.
As I go though life I make choices (that God foreordained) so that I might make mistakes (that God foreordained) and successes (that God foreordained) in order that I might learn (what God foreordained) so that I might make better choices in the future (that God has foreordained) ultimately that I would become conformed to the image of Christ (how God foreordained) in a very special and detailed unique way (that God foreordained).
Simple.
I have to live my life in such a manner as if I have “free” choice… that I am responsible for my behaviors and actions. If I do not, then I will deteriorate into “antinomianism” and “fatalism.” On the other hand, however, it is this underatanding that God has a plan that has worked out every detail is what helps me to sleep at night. When I mess up, I understand that it was part of God’s plan that I mess up and I don’t beat myself to a living pulp.
So… live your life like every choice is important and go easy on yourself when you make a “bad one”… Relax… God IS still on the throne!
clay
Does this mean that Man’s “free will” is really God’s? That God wills mistakes in our lives? Just wondering if I’m understanding. Thanks.
simpleman said this on August 14, 2008 at 5:11 am
God is in sovereign control over everything. Not a sparrow drops from the sky apart from His will. [Matthew 10:29-30] Every hair on our head is numbered.
Man does not have a “free will.” His will is bound by his nature. If you give a dog a choice between a bowl of brussel sprouts and a bowl of meat, which one will he freely choose? The meat, of course… every time. Why? Because his choices are bound by his nature. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. [See Romans]
But back to your question… the answer is Yes… God wills it… decrees it… yet I also make the choice to do it. They are both true. God IS big enough and powerful enough to make this happen.
Let’s look at Genesis 45: Consider Joseph speaking with his brothers who sold him into slavery to the Egyptians. Upon revealing his true identity to them he said:
5″Now do not be grieved or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.
6″For the famine has been in the land these two years, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting.
7″God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth, and to keep you alive by a great deliverance.
8″Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God ; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.
Did Joseph’s brothers sell him into slavery? Yes. Did they choose to do that freely? Yes. Does the bible not also say that God sent Joseph to Egypt? Yes. It doesn’t say “God turned the evil that Joseph’s brother did to good” but it literally says God sent Joseph “before” them… indicating God’s sovereign hand.
… to really blow the human mind, this all happens and yet never is God the author of the sin.
Somehow these two things are not incompatible… they are only so because we are at a disadvantage in that we are in a box of space and time… God isn’t.
If the bible teaches it, it must be true and I refuse to say “That can’t be” because it won’t fit in my own puny mind… I am not the measure of all things… God is.
Thanks for the question.
clay
thepotterandtheclay said this on August 14, 2008 at 5:54 am
So let me see if I have this right. It was God’s will that Abraham commit adultery and father Ishmael. It was God’s will that rightious Lott settle down in a wicked city named Sodom. It was God’s will that Joseph’s brothers comtimplate murder. Doesn’t the Bible say that God does not tempt man to do evil? (James 1:13). Matthew 10:29-30 does not say that it is God’s will when every sparrow falls, but rather God knows when every sparrow falls. Genesis 45 does indeed say that it was God’s will that Joseph go to Egypt and become ruler, but it does not say that God willed him to get there the way he did. It does say that God can take any situation and turn it into good, no matter what man chooses to do. Just because someone may know what the outcome of something may be does not mean that person had anything to do with the circumstances involving that outcome. If it wasn’t so sad, it would be funny watching how Calvanists twist scripture to mean what they want it to.
Creationist said this on August 15, 2008 at 8:33 pm
First off, Calvinist is spelled with an “i”… but that’s not the point.
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Matthew 10:29-30 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
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This does not say foreknowledge friend, but WILL.
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The KJV says “…one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.”
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It does not say without the father foreknowing… it is you who is inserting things that are not there and twisting scripture.
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The God of the bible DECREES things. He will accomplish all thet He sets out to accomplish. If you don’t think that’s fair, well than, I suggest you read Romans 9.
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The text is the text and you can’t make Matthew 10 mean God “foreknew”… there is not one translation I know of says this.
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God bless you and keep reading the scriptures and praying.
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clay
thepotterandtheclay said this on August 15, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Thanks for the spelling lesson. My mistake. In the context that Matthew 10 is written it is talking about how God will keep account of His people. He is telling them that they will endure persecution, but that He is there. That is thing about CalvInists they take so much out of context. I see you stayed away from my other POINTS. Sure God decrees things, but this verse does not say He DECREED the sparrow falling either. And, of course, His plan will come to fruition. I don’t believe I was arguing that. And we are not talking about fairness here. You are implying that, not me. I have read Romans 9. A common part of scripture used by CalvInist, but once agian they are taking things out of context. No, Matthew 10 is about if God takes into account the sparrows, then how much more so does He take into account His children. Matthew 10 does not support Calvinism, no matter how much you would like it to.
Creationist said this on August 15, 2008 at 10:18 pm
And one more thing while on the subject of Matthew 10 (consider this a PS). The words “the will of the father” was inserted by the NIV translators. It isn’t in the original. Luke 12:6 says this Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
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Excerpted from The Complete Multimedia Bible based on the King James Version
Copyright (c) 1994 Compton’s NewMedia, Inc.
Taken Luke”s reding and what I have told you, it should become more clearer that Matthew 10 is not talking about God’s will, but his account of His children.
Creationist said this on August 15, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Well, of course, I disagree.
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First… I say the scripture supports God’s sovereignty… not Calvinism.
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As far as your other points… yes God willed every single one of those things. God willed that Joseph get to Egypt EXACTLY as he did get thare… otherwise some evil guy might have come along and killed him on that “alternate road” you imply exists. Either God is in control… completely… or there is the potential for chaos.
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I know the main point of the story in Matthew is to not worry… but that doesn’t come from because God cares for you in a mushy lovey way, but that He is in control and that should comfort us. We are His and He has a plan.
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God keeps account of “His people” because He is sovereign and what will happen to them is completely under control because they are His chosen people. Look, everyone wants a sovereign God when their loved one is dying. Everyone wants a sovereign God when disaster strikes and you try to make sense out of the tragedy. The only comfort in your heart will come when you know that it happened because He willed it… He knows best and that it is designed to make you more into the image of Christ and will bring Him glory. If things happened apart from God’s sovereign control, then there would be senseless tragedy. That’s not very comforting.
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Our choices are merely illusions. Do we still have to live as if they are perfectly real? Of course we do. But again, when you mess up, it’s comforting to know God is teaching you something.
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Read Isaiah 10. The story basically goes that Israel was being wicked, so God decided to use the Assyrians to go in and punish Israel (yet again.) Then… after that, God decided to punish the Assyrians for their pride and haughtiness in attacking Israel. Are you not comfortable with a God in that much control? Then you are not comfortable with the true God of the bible.
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Proverbs 19 – 20Listen to counsel and accept discipline,
That you may be wise the rest of your days.
21Many plans are in a man’s heart,
But the counsel of the LORD will stand.
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The ESV is even more clear : 21Many are the plans in the mind of a man,
but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand.
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Man can plan all he wants, but it is God’s will that will prevail.
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clay
thepotterandtheclay said this on August 15, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Do you believe the Bible is the INERRANT word of God?
Yes… or No…. ?
thepotterandtheclay said this on August 15, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Well, of course, I disagree.
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First… I say the scripture supports God’s sovereignty… not Calvinism.
BUT OF COURSE. YOU COULD SAY THAT ABOUT EVERY SINGLE SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE COULDN’T YOU? BUT YOU ARE USING IT TO SUPPORT YOUR FORM OF DOCTRINE, CALVINISM.
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As far as your other points… yes God willed every single one of those things. God willed that Joseph get to Egypt EXACTLY as he did get thare… otherwise some evil guy might have come along and killed him on that “alternate road” you imply exists. Either God is in control… completely… or there is the potential for chaos.
WOW. THERE IS SO MUCH IN THIS PARAGRAPH, WHERE SHOULD I START? SO WHAT YOU ARE TELLING US IS THAT GOD DECIDED THAT HE WAS GOING TO SEND JOSEPH TO EGYT, AND HE SAID WELL I’LL JUST USE HIS BROTHERS TO DO IT. I WILL MAKE THEM DO AN EVIL THING LIKE THROW HIM IN A PIT AND AND KILL HIM. OF COURSE I WON’T LET THEM KILL HIM, SO I WILL MAKE THEM CHANGE THEIR MINDS AND LEAVE HIM THEIR TO STARVE. OF COURSE, I WON’T LET THEM LEAVE HIM THERE SO I WILL SEND SOME SLAVE TRADERS BY AND LET THEM SALE HIM TO THEM, THINKING THAT THEY ARE RID OF JOSEPH FOREVER. NOW CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, BUT ISN’T MURDER EVIL? ISN’T LEAVING SOMEONE TO STARVE TO DEATH EVIL? ISN’T SALING SOMEONE AS A SLAVE WITH THE INTENTION OF GETTING RID OF THEM EVIL? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO HERE, JUST IGNORE JAMES 1:13? ACT LIKE THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE? I THOUGHT YOU WERE A BIBLICIST. JAMES 1:13:
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
NOW COULDN’T THESE MEN SAY, HEY GOD MADE ME DO IT? IN YOUR THEOLOGY THEY COULD. AND WHAT ABOUT THE FANTASY OF SOMEONE KILLING JOSEPH ON THE WAY? I THOUGHT YOU BELIEVED IN THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD? COULD NOT GOD HAVE PROTECTED JOSEPH ON HIS WAY? DOES ANYTHING SURPRISE GOD? DOES MAN DO SOMETHING AND GOD SET BACK AND RUB HIS HEAD AND SAY “OH NO, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO NOW?” HMMM?
NO, WHEN JOSEPH SAYS “YOU MEANT IT FOR EVIL, BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD” WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THIS. YOU SOLD ME INTO SLAVERY TO EGYPT WANTING TO GET RID OF ME, BUT GOD FORORDAINED, BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, THAT I WOULD GO TO EGYPT AND BECOME RULER TO SAVE ISRAEL FROM STARVING.
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I know the main point of the story in Matthew is to not worry… but that doesn’t come from because God cares for you in a mushy lovey way, but that He is in control and that should comfort us. We are His and He has a plan.
THE MAIN POINT OF THIS HISTORICAL EVENT IN MATTHEW IS THAT GOD CARES FOR HIS CHILDREN. IF GOD TAKES INTO ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENS TO A SPARROW, HOW MUCH MORE VALUABLE ARE HIS CHILDREN. AND DOES NOT A MAN GET A LITTLE MUSHY OVER HIS CHILDREN SOMETIMES? AND YOU THINK GOD CAN’T OVER HIS?
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God keeps account of “His people” because He is sovereign and what will happen to them is completely under control because they are His chosen people.
WHICH IS A FAR CRY FROM GOD WILLING THAT SOMETHING HAPPEN TO THEM, WHICH IS MY WHOLE POINT.
Look, everyone wants a sovereign God when their loved one is dying. Everyone wants a sovereign God when disaster strikes and you try to make sense out of the tragedy. The only comfort in your heart will come when you know that it happened because He willed it…
SO I CAN FIND COMFORT FROM KNOWING THAT GOD WILLED MY CHILD TO DRIVE HIS/HER CAR INTO A TREE AND GET KILLED? I CAN TAKE COMFORT INKNOWING THAT GOD WILLED TERRORIST TO FLY AIRPLANES INTO A BUILDING KILLING MANY PEOPLE? I MAKE SENSE OUT OF THAT? GIVE ME A BREAK.
He knows best and that it is designed to make you more into the image of Christ and will bring Him glory.
WHERE IS THE GLORY IN GOD WILLING THAT PEOPLE KILL AN UNBORN CHILD? HOW WILL THAT BRING ME INTO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST? AND IS THAT AN IMAGE THAT I WANT? IS THAT AN IMAGE THAT YOU WANT TO BE LIKE? BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE, BUT IT IS NOT BECAUSE GOD WILLS IT, IT IS BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN GENESIS.
If things happened apart from God’s sovereign control, then there would be senseless tragedy. That’s not very comforting.
SOMEONE FLYING A PLANE INTO A BUILDING WITH THE SOLE PURPOSE OF KILLING PEOPLE IS SENSELESS TRAGEDY MY FRIEND. GOD NOT WILLING THAT SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULD HAPPEN DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD IS NOT IN CONTROL.
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Our choices are merely illusions. Do we still have to live as if they are perfectly real?
WELL, I WISH YOU WERE MY BANKER, I WOULD TELL YOU THAT YOUR CHOICE FOR ME TO PAY YOU IS JUST AN ILLUSION. OUR CHOICES ARE REAL AND THE CONSEQUENCES WE BARE BECAUSE OF THEM ARE PROOF OF IT.
Of course we do. But again, when you mess up, it’s comforting to know God is teaching you something.
GOD DOES TEACH, BUT HE DOESN’T TEACH YOU SOMETHING BY MAKING OTHER PEOPLE TO EVIL THINGS. DOES HE ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN? YES. AFTER ALL, HE IS IN CONTROL. BUT THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS GOD WILLING SOMEONE TO DO EVIL.
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Read Isaiah 10. The story basically goes that Israel was being wicked, so God decided to use the Assyrians to go in and punish Israel (yet again.)
YES, GOD USES THE WICKED TO ACCOMPLISH HIS WILL SOMETIMES. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT GOD ALLOWED THE ASSYRIANS TO DO. GOD DID NOT WILL THE ASSYRIANS TO DO IT, HE DIDN’T HAVE TO. THEY WANTED TO DO IT, AND HE ALLOWED IT. NOT THE SAME THING.
Then… after that, God decided to punish the Assyrians for their pride and haughtiness in attacking Israel.
GOD DECIDED TO PUNISH THE WICKED ASSYRIANS BUT NOT JUST BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DID TO ISRAEL. THEY WERE WICKED, PAGAN PEOPLE AND GOD DESTROYED THEM. NOT BECAUSE OF ISRAEL, BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN.
Are you not comfortable with a God in that much control? Then you are not comfortable with the true God of the bible.
I AM COMFORTABLE WITH GOD BEING IN CONTROL, BUT I COULDN’T BE COMFORTABLE WITH A MAD MAN IN CONTROL.
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Proverbs 19 – 20Listen to counsel and accept discipline,
That you may be wise the rest of your days.
21Many plans are in a man’s heart,
But the counsel of the LORD will stand.
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The ESV is even more clear : 21Many are the plans in the mind of a man,
but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand.
PERHAPS ONE DAY, YOU WILL LEARN TO USE THE REAL BIBLE AS YOUR GUIDE. MAYBE IT WILL HELP YOU NOT BE SO CONFUSED.
20 Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.
21 There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
LOT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DISCIPLINE AND INSTRUCTION. NOT THAT GOD DOES NOT DISCIPLINE HIS CHILDREN, HE DOES, JUST HAS HE DISCIPLINED ISRAEL, BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT HE IS SAYING HERE.
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Man can plan all he wants, but it is God’s will that will prevail.
EXACTLY, THAT IS GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY, AND IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD WILLS MEN TO DO EVIL. AFTER ALL, HE DOESN’T HAVE TO.
Creationist said this on August 21, 2008 at 1:52 am
Do you believe the Bible is the INERRANT word of God?
Yes… or No…. ?
I DO, BUT I’M NOT SURE YOU DO. YOU CAN’T SEEM TO FIND THE WORD OF GOD, SINCE YOU SEARCH SO MANY BIBLES LOOKING FOR IT. CAN YOU HONESTLY SAY THAT ANY BIBLE YOU PUT YOUR HAND ON IS THE WORD OF GOD? OR IS THAT JUST SOME TRANSLATION THAT GOT PRETTY CLOSE?
Creationist said this on August 21, 2008 at 1:54 am
Creationist:
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I did not know you were a “King James Only” kind of guy. Ok… we’ll stick with that one if you wish. I do, however, believe that God is powerful enough to preserve His truth through faithful translations. Beside that… you should be studying greek and Herew… no?
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Now, if you believe that the bible is the innerrant word of God, then God sure did get lucky that all the people who wrote it did it right… since the all had free choice to do whatever they wanted.
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It is impossible for an inerrant bible if God did not have complete control over all those that wrote it.
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You wrote: “NO, WHEN JOSEPH SAYS “YOU MEANT IT FOR EVIL, BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD” WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THIS. YOU SOLD ME INTO SLAVERY TO EGYPT WANTING TO GET RID OF ME, BUT GOD FORORDAINED, BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, THAT I WOULD GO TO EGYPT AND BECOME RULER TO SAVE ISRAEL FROM STARVING.”
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Exactly! Yes… precisely my point. I could not have said it better.
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“SOMEONE FLYING A PLANE INTO A BUILDING WITH THE SOLE PURPOSE OF KILLING PEOPLE IS SENSELESS TRAGEDY MY FRIEND. GOD NOT WILLING THAT SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULD HAPPEN DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD IS NOT IN CONTROL.”
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Where are you getting this theology? Where does it say “I the Lord am in complete control even though I allow senseless tragedy.” “Don’t worry declares the Lord, because sometimes I will prevent senseless tragedy, if I have a purpose for you… otherwise you might be out of luck… but it’s ok because I am the Lord and God… in control… of everything… mostly.”
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Let me assure you… if you believe this way… and your daughter gets cancer… then you will shake your fist against God and say “Why did you let this happen to me?! Why are you letting this happen to my child?!” You will quickly turn from your God… because He really isn’t in control of anything.
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Is not “letting” something happen pretty much as saying the same thing as being the cause of it? I mean, if I let a murder happen I am equally guilty of “evil.” You will look up to the sky and curse Him for allowing it. Makes no difference.
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Just becasue God ordains something does not make him the author of sin. And just because you can’t see the sense in it, does not mean it does not make divine sense. Just because it does not make sense to your or my puny little minds doesn’t mean it has no sense. Your thinking is very clearly humanistic (egotistic) and you have placed yourself in the position of being the measure of things. YOU are deciding what is and is not senseless.
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“YES, GOD USES THE WICKED TO ACCOMPLISH HIS WILL SOMETIMES.”
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Sometimes but not all the time? No… God always uses the wicked to accomplish His will. God is consistent… He does not change.
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Isaiah 45:6-8 (King James Version) 6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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This is the God of the bible. He’s sovereign friend… absolutely sovereign. There it is in plane King James English… “I the Lord… create Evil” Black and white… You may not like that and you may not believe it, but I tell you, you are not worshipping the God of the bible… you worship an idol.
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You say the God I speak of is a “mad man”… well, I would be careful what judgements you are passing on God.
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When the bible tells us to choose well, then we should choose well… when it says all things happen according to the good pleasure of God, then that is true as well. Somehow you have to become comfortable with this divine tension… just remember… who gets all the glory in the end. (Clue… it’s not us)
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Why does God allow or create evil? Romans 8: 28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
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I would appreciate you keep it respectful. I don’t have a problem debating doctrine, but I don’t like bickering.
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clay
thepotterandtheclay said this on August 21, 2008 at 5:37 am
Creationist:
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I did not know you were a “King James Only” kind of guy.
I’M A WORD OF GOD ONLY KIND OF GUY. I BELIEVE THE KJV IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Ok… we’ll stick with that one if you wish. I do, however, believe that God is powerful enough to preserve His truth through faithful translations.
NO DOUBT, AND THAT FAITHFUL TRANSLATION IS THE KJV. YOU EVER HEARD OF A GUY NAMED BART EHRMAN? HE IS AN AGNOSTIC, YET HE WAS ON THE COMMITTEE FOR THE NRSV BIBLE. DO YOU REALLY THING THAT SOMEONE WHO IS AN AGNOSTIC CAN HELP PRODUCE A FAITHFUL VERSION? THE OTHER VERSIONS HAVE SOME SIMILAR PROBLEMS. AND YES MAN DID CHANGE THE MANUSCRIPTS, TO FIT THEIR OWN THEOLOGY. BUT WHEN HAS IT EVER BEEN THAT WHAT MAN DOES CHANGES WHAT GOD PROMISES? BUT ALL THAT IS FOR ANOTHER DISCUSSION.
Beside that… you should be studying greek and Herew… no?
NO. THE KING JAMES TRANSLATORS ALREADY DID THAT FOR ME.
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Now, if you believe that the bible is the innerrant word of God, then God sure did get lucky that all the people who wrote it did it right… since the all had free choice to do whatever they wanted.
I THINK YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT HERE. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE THE BIBLE NEVER SAID ANYTHING WRONG? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY NEVER SAID ANYTHING STUPID? GOD DID NOT ALLOW THESE THINGS TO ENTER THE BIBLE. NOBODY IS QUESTIONING GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY. PETER TELLS US IN 2 PETER 1:20-21 THAT THE PROPHECY CAME FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT. YES, GOD HAS A SOVEREIGN WILL AND THE BIBLE TELLS US THAT BY HIS WILL WE HAVE THE WORD OF GOD AND THAT HE PROMISED TO PRESERVE IT. BUT THE BIBLE ALSO TELLS US THAT WE HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE WHEN IT COMES TO FOLLOWING GOD. THAT CHOICE IS TO BELIEVE GOD OR NOT TO BELIEVE HIM.
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It is impossible for an inerrant bible if God did not have complete control over all those that wrote it.
I AGREE.
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You wrote: “NO, WHEN JOSEPH SAYS “YOU MEANT IT FOR EVIL, BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD” WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THIS. YOU SOLD ME INTO SLAVERY TO EGYPT WANTING TO GET RID OF ME, BUT GOD FORORDAINED, BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, THAT I WOULD GO TO EGYPT AND BECOME RULER TO SAVE ISRAEL FROM STARVING.”
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Exactly! Yes… precisely my point. I could not have said it better.
BUT DON’T YOU SEE THAT WHAT I SAID IS NOT THE SAME THAT GOD WILLED EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN JOSEPH’S LIFE.
YOU HAVE MADE POOR DECISIONS IN YOUR LIFE, NO? WE ALL DO. DID GOD CAUSE YOU TO MAKE THAT POOR DECISION? PROBABLY NOT, BUT CAN GOD TAKE THAT POOR DECISION AND TURN IT INTO SOMETHING GOOD? YOU BET.
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“SOMEONE FLYING A PLANE INTO A BUILDING WITH THE SOLE PURPOSE OF KILLING PEOPLE IS SENSELESS TRAGEDY MY FRIEND. GOD NOT WILLING THAT SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULD HAPPEN DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD IS NOT IN CONTROL.”
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Where are you getting this theology? Where does it say “I the Lord am in complete control even though I allow senseless tragedy.” “Don’t worry declares the Lord, because sometimes I will prevent senseless tragedy, if I have a purpose for you… otherwise you might be out of luck… but it’s ok because I am the Lord and God… in control… of everything… mostly.”
THAT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY CONTROL? DID GOD CREATE ROBOTS, TOYS FOR HIM TO PLAY WITH? AND SET THEM UP TO DO THIS AND THAT JUST TO AMUSE HIMSELF? GOD IS IN CONTROL, BUT DOES THAT MEAN HE INTENDED FOR ALL THE WICKED KINGS OF ISRAEL TO BE ON THE THRONE, OR DID HE ALLOW THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL TO CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES? AND THEN THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL HAVE TO FACE THE CONSEQUENCES, BECAUSE THEY WANTED A HUMAN KING INSTEAD OF THEIR GODLY KING. CAN GOD TAKE A TRAGEDY AND TURN IT INTO SOMETHING GOOD? DOES MAN EVER SURPRISE GOD BY WHAT THEY DO? WILL IT HAVE ANY BEARING ON THE OUTCOME OF GOD’S SOVEREIGN WILL? GOD ALLOWS US TO MAKE DECISIONS. WE PAY THE CONSEQUENCES.
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Let me assure you… if you believe this way… and your daughter gets cancer… then you will shake your fist against God and say “Why did you let this happen to me?! Why are you letting this happen to my child?!” You will quickly turn from your God… because He really isn’t in control of anything.
NO, YOU ARE WRONG, BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND WHY MY DAUGHTER MAY GET CANCER, WHY PEOPLE PERISH IN THIS WORLD. IT IS CALLED SIN. THE WAGES OF SIN ARE DEATH, AND WHEN ADAM SINNED WE ALL INHERITED HIS SINFUL NATURE, THEREFORE WE ALL SIN. THEREFORE GOD CURSED THE GROUND AND CREATION AND THAT IS WHY WE HAVE SICKNESS IN THIS WORLD. A BETTER WAY OF PUTTING IT IS WHY DOES GOD CURE SOME AND NOT OTHERS. THE ANSWER, OF COURSE, IS THIS: I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION AND MERCY ON WHOM I WILL HAVE MERCY. AND I HAVE QUESTIONED WHY HE HAS SPARED MY LIFE SO MANY TIMES WHILE LETTING OTHERS DIE. AND IF YOU SAY YOU WILL NOT, THEN YOU ARE LYING, YET I TRUST GOD TO DO THAT WHICH IS RIGHT, AND TRUST IN HIS UNDERSTANDING AND NOT MY OWN.
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Is not “letting” something happen pretty much as saying the same thing as being the cause of it? I mean, if I let a murder happen I am equally guilty of “evil.” You will look up to the sky and curse Him for allowing it. Makes no difference.
LET’S SAY YOU ARE DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD AND YOU HAVE TWO CHILDREN IN THE BACK OF THE CAR. ONE IS PICKING ON THE OTHER, AND YOU TURN AROUND AND TELL HIM/HER “DO NOT HIT YOUR SIBLING.” YET THAT CHILD HITS HIS/HER BROTHER OR SISTER ANYWAY. ARE YOU THE CAUSE OF IT? ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT GOD CAUSED ADAM TO EAT OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL? IF YOU ARE RAKING LEAVES IN THE FALL IN YOUR BACK YARD AND AFTER YOU GET THEM RAKED IN A PILE, YOU SET THEM ON FIRE. YOUR SMALL CHILD COMES OUT OF THE HOUSE AND COMES WHERE YOU ARE TO SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING, AND YOU TELL IT “DON’T STICK YOUR HAND IN THAT OR YOU WILL GET BURNED”, BUT THEY DO IT ANYWAY AND GET BURNED. DID YOU CAUSE IT? DID YOU WANT THEM TO DO IT EVEN THOUGH YOU TOLD THEM NOT TO? YOU ARE NOT THINKING STRAIGHT.
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Just becasue God ordains something does not make him the author of sin. And just because you can’t see the sense in it, does not mean it does not make divine sense.
I NEVER SAID IT DID. YET IF HE ORDAINED SOMEONE TO SIN, THEN HE AUTHORED IT, AND IT IS YOU THAT NEEDS TO SEE THE SENSE IN THAT.
Just because it does not make sense to your or my puny little minds doesn’t mean it has no sense. Your thinking is very clearly humanistic (egotistic) and you have placed yourself in the position of being the measure of things. YOU are deciding what is and is not senseless.
NO, I AM NOT. YOU ARE THE ONE USING HUMAN REASONING (ARROGANCE PROBABLY) TO TRY AND DEFEND YOUR DOCTRINE. THERE ARE MANY THINGS ABOUT GOD AND WHAT GOD DOES THAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND, ONE OF THEM STATED ABOVE. UNDERSTANDING AND SENSE IS NOT THE SAME THING. HE HIMSELF IS THE ONE WHO CREATED SENSE, AND COMMON SENSE. HE GAVE IT TO US SO WE COULD REASON WITH HIM. WE ARE NOT MINDLESS ROBOTS.
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“YES, GOD USES THE WICKED TO ACCOMPLISH HIS WILL SOMETIMES.”
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Sometimes but not all the time? No… God always uses the wicked to accomplish His will. God is consistent… He does not change.
HE DOES NOT ALWAYS USE THE WICKED TO DO CERTAIN THINGS, IS WHAT I MEANT. FOR INSTANCE SOMETIMES HE USES ANGELS TO SMITE THE WICKED INSTEAD OF WICKED PEOPLE.
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Isaiah 45:6-8 (King James Version) 6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
THIS MAY BE ONE OF THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD PASSAGES IN THE BIBLE. LET’S LOOK AT WHAT GOD IS SAYING HERE. HE SAID HE FORMED THE LIGHT AND CREATED DARKNESS. WELL BEFORE GOD CREATED LIGHT, THERE WAS NOTHING BUT DARKNESS (EXCEPT HIS OWN GLORY). IF YOU WERE IN THE WORLD BEFORE GOD FORMED THE LIGHT AND KNEW NOTHING BUT DARKNESS, WOULD IT REALLY BE DARKNESS? IN THE SENSE THAT GOD IS TALKING HERE, ONCE HE FORMED THE LIGHT, THEN DARKNESS WAS CREATED. HE CREATED A DIVISION BETWEEN THE TWO. THE SECOND PART OF THAT VERSE IS IN THE SAME SENSE. GOD IS PEACE, AND ANYTHING THAT IS OPPOSITE OF IT IS EVIL. GOD IS NOTHING BUT GOOD, AND ANYTHING THAT DISOBEYS GOD IS EVIL. IF GOD HAD SET NO LAWS, THEN THERE WOULDN’T BE ANY EVIL, BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NO LAW TO BREAK. IN THAT SENSE GOD DID CREATE EVIL, BUT MAN IS THE CAUSE OF IT. WELL, MAN AND SATAN.
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This is the God of the bible. He’s sovereign friend… absolutely sovereign.
ABSOLUTELY.
There it is in plane King James English… “I the Lord… create Evil” Black and white… You may not like that and you may not believe it, but I tell you, you are not worshipping the God of the bible… you worship an idol.
AND, OF COURSE, HE DID, YET MAN IS THE CAUSE OF IT.
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You say the God I speak of is a “mad man”… well, I would be careful what judgements you are passing on God.
MY STATEMENT IS NOT A JUDGEMENT ON GOD, BUT YOUR THEOLOGY. AND SOME PEOPLE DO WORSHIP A GOD THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT.
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When the bible tells us to choose well, then we should choose well… when it says all things happen according to the good pleasure of God, then that is true as well.
LET’S TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE. DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT ALL THINGS HAPPEN ACCORDING TO THE PLEASURE OF GOD. IF THAT IS TRUE THEN GOD MUST GET PLEASURE FROM DESTROYING THE WICKED, WOULDN’T YOU SAY? YET IN EZEKIEL WE SEE THIS:
EZEKIEL 33:11- Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
DO YOU SEE WHAT IT SAYS? IT SAYS THAT GOD HAS NO PLEASURE IN THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED. YES HE CREATED ALL THINGS FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE, SO NATURALLY, HE DIDN’T CREATE SOME FOR DESTRUCTION.
Somehow you have to become comfortable with this divine tension… just remember… who gets all the glory in the end. (Clue… it’s not us)
SOMEDAY, MAYBE YOU WILL LEARN TO LISTEN TO GOD, AND NOT WHAT SOME MAN (PAUL WASHER) IS TELLING YOU.
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Why does God allow or create evil? Romans 8: 28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
THAT DOES NOT TELL US WHY HE ALLOWS EVIL, IT ONLY TELLS US THAT FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM, HE CAN TAKE ANY SITUATION AND TURN IT INTO GOOD. THE REASON WHY HE ALLOWS EVIL IS WAY BACK IN GENESIS 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;.
THAT IS THE REASON WHY GOD ALLOWS EVIL. AND IT IS ALL MAN’S FAULT.
I would appreciate you keep it respectful. I don’t have a problem debating doctrine, but I don’t like bickering.
IF I HAVE OFFENDED, THEN I APOLOGIZE. ALL MY COMMENTS ARE MEANT TO BE RESPECTFUL, BUT SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS.
Creationist said this on August 22, 2008 at 1:46 am
Quick question, who is edified and glorified with all of this bickering? If you think it’s Jesus, you (both) are wrong.
simpleman said this on August 22, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Here is what I do know (and there is certainly a lot I do not). What I know is that when people make salvation man-centered you end up wih a lot of departure from biblical churches and biblical living… you get a lot of people that think that you can get saved but not necessarilly have Christ as Lord and not necessarilly have your life marked by obedience to His commands… you get a lot of the world in the church. Pragmatism becomes the order of the day in regards to evangelism. This is clear in 90% of American Christinaity. It is fact… it is fruit.
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In contrast, at a church that believes in the doctrines of grace, there seems to be a higher percentage of truly regenerate people… more holy living and an embracing of the sactification process. There is no separation between salvation and Lordship of Christ. There is an emphasis on the saving work of Jesus who came to seek and save the lost.
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You can tell a tree by it’s fruit. The fruit is different in churches with these two diametrically opposed soteriologies.
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Now I choose to attend a church that doesn’t think coffee, Super Sowl Sunday parties, muscle men, golf clubs, movie nights and ventriloquist are a part of spreading the Gospel or feeding the sheep. What that means is that, most likely, I am going to wind up in a sovereign grace church.
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I choose to listen to people like Paul Washer, Charles Spurgeon, John MacArthur, John Piper and a host of others because they preach that Amaerican Chritianity is a circus… they tell the truth. Men need to hear it because it’s true.
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Somehow God controls everything, but we aren’t robots and we make choices. I dunno how that happens… but that’s what the bible says. Of course the bible talks about man’s responsibilty to respond correctly… and it also says man can not do it… the Father must give us to Jesus. To reconcile both by denying one doctrine over the other is wrong.
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I do not know one Calvinist that denies the doctrine of man making a decision to exercise faith… we just believe that we have to be enabled to do so. On the other hand, Most Arminians that I have talked to or listened to refuse to even acknowledge the other doctrine… they simply want to explain it away.
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What burdens me is easy believism… slice it any way you want it… being saved is more than walking an aisle and saying a prayer sincerely. If you believe that then we’ll get a long just fine.
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God bless you both.
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clay
thepotterandtheclay said this on August 22, 2008 at 9:37 pm