Examine yourself…

2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

Paul Washer is one of the most annointed preacers of our age. He was the first sovereign grace preacher that I think I ever heard… he rocked my world. He set me on fire when I heard him preaching on our anemic cultural Christianity… and I have never been the same since.

He is the most downloaded preacher on www.sermonaudio.com

Below is a powerful sermon jam that floors me to this day. May it bless you as it blessed me.

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~ by thepotterandtheclay on August 14, 2008.

15 Responses to “Examine yourself…”

  1. Clay,
    I see your passion for the Word and for the teaching of truth.
    I too share in these things. I can’t stand the teaching of easy believeism. I want to ask you a question in regards to the teachings of Calvin. Is your understanding of scripture regarding predestination worth separating yourself form others who love the Word and the teaching of truth as much as you? Do you feel that if the “church” is not teaching the TULIP they are heretics? I’m not looking for an argument, just a discussion between two saints. Thanks.

    Simpleman

  2. Simpleman:
    .
    I will answer your questions one at a time.
    .
    “Is your understanding of scripture regarding predestination worth separating yourself form others who love the Word and the teaching of truth as much as you?”
    .
    Well “truth” is a relative term, isn’t it? It shouldn’t be, but it seems that it is. Is it really true that Jesus is standing at the door of the heart of an unbleliever knocking?? Now in many churches that is the truth… but the bible says differently. That portion of scripture is taking to the CHURCH… the PROFESSING BELIEVER and not the LOST. Some people love TRADITION more than the truth… and they believe the tradition to BE the truth… but it’s not. Is it true that “Saying the sinner’s prayer” = “Calling on the name of the Lord”? If that is someone’s “truth”, then I must say that I should come out and be seperate from that… the bible mandates it. It is not the truth. Many are deceived into believing they are saved and sit at home in assurance os salvation bcause of that error.
    .
    It’s not good enough to say “Well… if 1,000 people say the prayer and one gets saved then it was worth it.”
    .
    I use the term “Calvinist” out of convenience because it describes certains tenets. Foremost, I am a Christian, friend. I am a biblicist. As a matter of fact, I have read very little from Calvin himself as of yet (but I do have some stuff on the way).
    .
    I do feel at some point people begin preaching a different Jesus and a different Gospel than the one the apostles preached. The Mormans are a good example of that… or the Jehovah’s Witness. I don’t care how much one says thay love the “truth” but if they do not preach, for example, on the horror of sin, then they aren’t preaching the truth… because a half truth is no thuth at all.
    .
    There are “spine” issues and “rib” isssue. WHEN Jesus is returning is a rib… but WHY Jesus came is a spine thing. Personally, I believe that man can not decide (on his own) to follow Jesus because he is dead… he needs to be resurrected. I think that’s a spinal issue.
    .
    So, yes I do wonder… I wonder how many that cry “Lord Lord” are actually on the narrow path.
    .
    So I will preach the Jesus I know (from the bible) and I will worship among people that believe as I do. If that means I am seperate, then so be it.
    .
    clay

  3. You’re saying so many true (Biblical) things. While so many of these are hard for the average church member to swallow they must face the only thing that is absolute, the Bible. I’m not Armenian by any means or a Calvinist. What separates you and I seems to be one thing, predestination. Period. Now, am I a heretic? Am I mislead? Am I undereducated? Or am I just not a Biblicist? Thanks.

    Simpleman

  4. Eph 1: 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us.
    .
    So… what are we supposed to do with this? The bible says this. Do we just say…. “Ya… well I don’t like that.” ??
    .
    I’m not in any way trying to talk down to you, but, what I am saying… is that you have not completely thought out the theological position to it’s logical conclusion yet. God hasn’t completely turned on all the lights yet. I am confident through prayer and reading… really chewing on this stuff that it will change.
    .
    Look, I don’t understand it all… I wrestle with this stuff daily. I still have problems with “fairness” and Adam’s original sin and was that God’s will and how’s that fair? I struggle all the time… but I refuse to ignore what the bible says becasue it offends my ego and that I don’t like the idea that I don’t have enough good in me even to make a good choice (for Jesus).
    .
    Go look at the posts under “An Amazing Quote” and read my comments about needing a sovereign God when tragedy happens. That’s when everyone needs a sovereign God. We all welcome a sovereign God then.
    .
    I am not calling you a heretic. I do, however, believe that man’s free will… the only “mostly fallen” ideas about man’s nature are departures from longstanding historical Christianity… and there have been councils and sinods that declared those positions heretical. If you happen to have the same beliefs as these positions, then historically, your position has been thought of as heretical.
    .
    My burden… the one I keep coming back to is that if man has the power of choice… then we are now in danger of evangelizing to them and appealing to their flesh… since what we are going after is a “decision” as opposed to true repentance and faith. Man WILL alter the story. I even find myself wanting to tone down the sin message… don’t you? My flesh wants to go “Oh don’t say that… you’ll offend them.” That tells me it’s wrong right there… but I live based on the bible and not my experience.
    .
    If you don’t believe in predestination, then how do you deal with the word in the bible “predestinated?” How then could Christ have died “at the right time.” How could there have been a guy with a pitcher of water for the apostle to follow tho find the upper room for the last supper? How can ANY prophecy occur. How can the bible be the INERRANT WORD OF GOD?
    .
    clay

  5. “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:3-4

    “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, (not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
    2 Peter 3:9

    You say the Bible says that the decision whether or not a particular individual will be saved is entirely up to God, and man has no responsibility at all to respond or reject. If scripture says that God offers salvation to all men, then it must mean that your theological position and logical conclusion believes that all people will be saved! But that conclusion is clearly false, I know. So who are “all ”?

    I’m enjoying this dialogue brother!
    simpleman

  6. Ok… let’s take one thing at a time.

    Part 1 of 3 – RESPONSIBILITY.
    .
    You said “man has no responsibility at all to respond or reject.”
    .
    That’s a) not true and b) not what I said. All men are commanded to “repent” and “believe.” It is commanded by our Lord (everyone’s Lord) and the apostles. All are responsible for rejecting the Lord. Now… just because we are resposible, does not mean we are capable. We don’t have the ability to respond, but Adam did. He was our Federal representative and you are in Adam. Now even if you were in Adam’s place , you would have disobeyed God too Simpleman… so would I have.
    .
    KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY
    .
    You were represented by Adam… he did have a choice… and had you been in Adam’s place you would have done exactly the same.
    .
    KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY
    .
    Just because you owe a debt on your house but can not pay it does not make you any less reponsible for paying that debt… isn’t that right? The bank president would look at you as if you were mad if you made this argument. So it is not lunacy to try and say that responsibility and ability are mutually exclusive concepts… they can both be true.
    .
    So… it is, indeed, just that we are held responsible for the decision to reject God. We all rejected God prior to salvation. Now… grace and mercy is OUTSIDE of justice. If we would all get fairness, we would all be hurled straight into hell immediately.
    .
    God decided to save some out of his righteous judgement.
    .
    Man can not… because he WILL not take God’s grace. It makes Him REALLY ANGRY becase in his heart man wants to rely on his own righteousness… he wants to make God HIS debtor and not him being in debt to God. Man wants to say “Here… I did this and now you have to do that, God.”
    .
    This is pride and ego and sin.
    .
    Just because it doesn’t seem fair to us is humanistic at it’s heart. It is measuring God by man’s standards. But man is NOT the measure of all things… God is. If He tells me I am responsible but unable to pay my debt… I believe it. As a matter of fact, He is so worthy that if he decides to throw me into hell after living a life serving Christ, then, so be it… who am I that he should save me.

    … but praise God and Jesus Christ that He did.

    Check out this link… it is a great summary

    http://bereanbiblebaptistchurch.org/resources/freewill.php

    clay

  7. Part 2 of 3 – 2 Peter 3

    8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    .
    Follow me along a line of thinking and see if this might illuminate something for you. First, the context of this section of the epistle is concerning eschatology and not soteriology. Peter is addressing concerns about people grumbling about why Christ hasn’t returned yet. The thrust of the writing is about that criticism and not salvation. Second, you will see that the lord is longsuffering to “us-word” or in another translation “but is patient toward you”. So who is this “you” or “us-ward?” and “”any” and “all” Well we simply look in the beginning of the chapter
    .
    2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you.
    .
    Well if this is the second epistle, let’s look at the beginning of the first Epistle to see who Peter is writing to…
    .
    1 Peter 1: 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
    .
    It’s written to the ELECT of God. He is patient and not willing to have “any” elect perish but that “all” elect will come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth.
    .
    Now you’re probably going to say “Well… it says elect according to God’s foreknowledge, so God knew who would choose Him, so he chooses them. When you look at the Greek root of the word foreknowledge, you come to see that is not a good argument.
    .
    This is the exact same greek word “prognosis” which is also used in Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: It is derived from the word “proginosko” (#4267) which is not simply knowing beforehand but, according to the complete word study dictionary, “this term is reserved for those matters which God favorably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained.”
    .
    Look it up yourself brother… this isn’t that God looked down the corridors of time and knew who would choose him so he chose them. That is not faithful exegesis of the biblical text. We don’t make choices and then move God. God moves first… He chooses first… then we choose Him.
    .
    So… what 2 Peter 3 is espousing is that the gathering of all God’s elect must be complete before the return of Christ… before the second coming. This is not a proof text that God wants all the people in the world to be saved. Did God want the Egyptians to be saved? How come they weren’t told about smearing blood on the doorposts… that’s not fair. Or how about Pharaoh… did he want to save Pharaoh as much as Moses?
    .
    C.H. Spurgeon wrote a little diatribe on the terms “all” and “world” I would like you to consider. He is more succinct than I could ever hope to be…
    .
    “the whole world has gone after him” (Jn. 12:19). Did all the world [really] go after Christ? “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan” (Mk. 1:5). Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God, little children, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one” (1 Jn. 5:19). Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words world and all are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the all means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts — some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile” (Scripture references added).
    .
    Brother… I believe if one really follows proper hermeneutics and exegesis, it becomes clearer that this use of the “world” and “all” means Jew and Gentile alike… it means “all types” of people. Many times world means the world of believers.
    .
    Christ didn’t die to potentially save people. He died to actually pay for the sins of the elect. He will not fail to redeem His chosen people.
    .
    He has always chosen a people for Himself…
    .
    clay

  8. Part 3 of 3 – 1 Tim 2:1-4
    .
    In order to properly analyze the meaning of 1 Tim 2:6, we need to look at another part of the same book written by the same author with the exact same sentence structure and Greek word for “all” which is “pas.” That would be 1 Timothy 6:10. I have included three different translations:
    .
    KJV – For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
    .
    NASB – For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
    .
    ESV – For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

    .
    The NIV also uses the word “kinds” of evil.
    .
    The Greek root is the word “pas” and is used in a lot of different ways. As with many words in the English language, a word is framed or defined by the context that it is used in. For example… if I came home, and opened the refrigerator and said “Who ate all the rice?” Did I really mean who ate all the rice in the entire world? Did I mean who ate all the rice in the entire house? Or… did I mean who ate all the rice left over from last night’s dinner? You can see by this example that “all” is not always “all.”
    .
    In the above example, we would all agree that the love of money is not the root of ALL evil… right? That’s common sense. There are lots of sins that have nothing at all to do with money. Pride, envy, hatred, etc. none ofthose have anything to do with money… but they are all evil things. So… it stands to reason that money is not the root of “all evil” but rather “all sorts of evil.”
    .
    In Greek, “pas” is used as our two English words “all kinds” or “all sorts” when it follows a list or plethora of things before. In other words, when context directly before the word “pas” is talking about different kinds of things, then so is the word “pas.” Directly preceding these texts, Paul is telling Timothy about “many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.” These “many desires” are the “kinds” of evil that are being described. That is why some of the translations render the word “sorts” and “kinds” along with the word “all” in their translations of evils as can be seen above.
    .
    Now… grammatically, the sentence structure of 1 Tim 2:4 is identical to that of 1 Tim 6:10
    .
    1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    .
    Notice that preceding this word “all” or “pas”, there is, once again, a list of different types of men… Kings and all sorts of men in authority. So… by standard Greek grammar, it is very likely that the context of the word “pas” is dictating that it’s actual rendering should be all “sorts” or “kinds” of men. When you think about the culture (which proper Hermeneutics dictate must take place), this begins to make a lot of sense.
    .
    People did NOT want to pray for rulers. These were the people that taxed them, persecuted them and made their lives miserable most of the time; these were tyrants. Paul is pleading with them to pray for those they hated… that’s why he says “God wants all kinds of men to be saved… pray for everyone.”
    .
    This is not saying that God desires all men (every man, woman and child on the face of the planet) to be saved.
    .
    Now does that mean that sometimes he does not lament over those that reject Him? Of course it doesn’t. But that is a discussion for another time.
    .
    clay

  9. Let me start off by saying that all my comments are meant in a kind way. I do not mean to offend, and I hope you take it that way. I will respond to your arguments one point at a time. To cut down on confusion, my comments will be in CAPS. Please do not take this to mean that I am yelling at you. Your comments will be left as they are and mine will be directly under yours.

    Ok… let’s take one thing at a time.
    Part 1 of 3 – RESPONSIBILITY.
    .
    You said “man has no responsibility at all to respond or reject.”
    .
    That’s a) not true and b) not what I said. All men are commanded to “repent” and “believe.” It is commanded by our Lord (everyone’s Lord) and the apostles. All are responsible for rejecting the Lord. Now… just because we are resposible, does not mean we are capable. We don’t have the ability to respond, but Adam did. He was our Federal representative and you are in Adam. Now even if you were in Adam’s place , you would have disobeyed God too Simpleman… so would I have.

    IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR GOD TO COMMAND ALL MEN TO REPENT AND BELIEVE AND THEY NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO SO. WHAT WOULD BE THE PURPOSE OF SUCH A COMMAND? WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THAT ONLY ADAM HAD THE ABILITY TO RESPOND, AND YET WE ARE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR ADAM’S SIN? AGAIN, THAT MAKES NO SENSE. YES, WE WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING AS ADAM, BECAUSE WE INHERITED ADAM’S SIN NATURE. IN OTHER WORDS, WE ARE JUST LIKE HIM.
    .
    KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY
    .
    You were represented by Adam… he did have a choice… and had you been in Adam’s place you would have done exactly the same.
    AGAIN, I DO NOT DISAGREE HERE. WE WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING, BECAUSE WE INHERITED ADAM’S SIN NATURE. AND IF ADAM HAD A CHOICE, THEN SO DO WE. WE DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE ABOUT INHERITING ADAM’S SIN NATURE, BUT ALL SIN IS CHOICE.
    .
    KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY KEY
    .
    Just because you owe a debt on your house but can not pay it does not make you any less reponsible for paying that debt… isn’t that right? The bank president would look at you as if you were mad if you made this argument. So it is not lunacy to try and say that responsibility and ability are mutually exclusive concepts… they can both be true.

    YES, BUT THE REASON YOU ARE HELD RESPONSIBLE IS BECAUSE YOU INITIATED THE LONE. THE BANKER DID NOT COME TO YOU AND JUST LET YOU BORROW THE MONEY. YOU AND HE SIGNED A CONTRACT. HE HELD UP HIS END, BUT YOU DIDN’T, WHETHER ON PURPOSE OR NOT, HOLD UP YOURS. YOU ARE TRYING TO COMPARE APPLES TO ORANGES. WE DID NOT GO TO GOD AND SAY CREATE ME. WE DID NOT GO TO GOD AND SAY, IF YOU CREATE ME I WILL WORSHIP YOU. NO GOD CREATED US WITH THE INTENTION OF US WORSHIPPING HIM AND MADE IT CLEAR FROM THE BEGINNING. HE TOLD ADAM WHAT TO DO, AND LET HIM KNOW THAT HE (GOD) WAS HIS CREATOR. AND BEING CREATOR, HE ALSO HAD THE RIGHT TO LAY DOWN SOME LAWS. THE FIRST BEING, “DO NOT EAT OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL”. YET ADAM DID IT ANYWAY. WHY? BECAUSE GOD DID NOT CREATE ADAM MORALLY PERFECT. IF HE HAD, THEN ADAM WOULD NEVER HAVE SINNED, AND HE WOULD BE JUST AS “GOOD” AS GOD.
    .
    So… it is, indeed, just that we are held responsible for the decision to reject God. We all rejected God prior to salvation. Now… grace and mercy is OUTSIDE of justice. If we would all get fairness, we would all be hurled straight into hell immediately.
    IF WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO REJECT GOD, THEN IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS THAT WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO OBEY GOD ALSO. WE ARE ALL BORN SINNERS AND THEREFORE SEPARATED FROM GOD. GOD IN HIS INFINITE WISDOM AND MERCY PROVIDED A WAY FOR US TO BE RECONCILED WITH HIM. THAT WAY IS JESUS CHRIST.
    .
    God decided to save some out of his righteous judgement.

    GOD, BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN DECIDED WHAT HE WOULD ACCEPT FROM MAN AND WHAT HE WOULDN’T. WHAT HE WOULD NOT ACCEPT FROM MAN, WAS MAN COMING UP WITH HIS OWN WAY TO BE ACCEPTED BY GOD. AFTER ADAM AND EVE SINNED, THEY TRIED TO MAKE CLOTHES FOR THEMSELVES. WHY? THEY THOUGHT GOD MIGHT ACCEPT THEM IF THEY COVERED THEMSELVES. YET WHAT DID GOD DO? HE DID NOT ACCEPT THEM, BUT INSTEAD KILLED SOME ANIMALS, PROBABLY SHEEP, AND CLOTHED THEM HIMSELF. THE SAME IS TRUE TODAY. “WHOSEVER” WILL COME TO GOD ON GOD’S TERMS WILL BE ACCEPTED AND SAVED. UNFORTUNATELY, NOT ALL MEN WILL, BUT ONLY SOME WILL. BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

    Man can not… because he WILL not take God’s grace. It makes Him REALLY ANGRY becase in his heart man wants to rely on his own righteousness… he wants to make God HIS debtor and not him being in debt to God. Man wants to say “Here… I did this and now you have to do that, God.”

    I AGREE, BUT SOME WILL, AS BEEN DEMONSTRATED IN THE BIBLE. GOD MADE A WAY FOR SALVATION. TAKE CALEB AND JOSHUA FOR INSTANCE WHEN THEY SCOUTED OUT THE LAND FOR THE ISRAELITES. THEY BELIEVED GOD AND SAID LET’S GO IN AND TAKE IT. THE REST OF THE ISRAELITES DID NOT. THEY ALL PERISHED IN THE WILDERNESS. HOW MANY TIMES DID GOD SHOW MERCY TO ISRAEL, YET TIME AFTER TIME, THEY TURNED THEIR BACK ON HIM. WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT GOD MADE JOSHUA AND CALEB BELIEVE HIM? THEY JUST DID. IN FACT JOSHUA TOLD THE PEOPLE, UNDER THE INSPIRATION OF GOD, TO “CHOOSE THIS DAY”. JOSHUA SAID HE AND HIS HOUSE WOULD SERVE THE LORD, BUT MANY OF THE ISRAELITES DID NOT. THAT IS WHAT GOD’S GRACE IS ALL ABOUT. IT IS GIVEN TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE. NOT BECAUSE THEY DESEVE IT, BUT BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED AND GOD ACCOUNTED IT THEM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    .
    This is pride and ego and sin.

    OF COURSE.
    .
    Just because it doesn’t seem fair to us is humanistic at it’s heart. It is measuring God by man’s standards. But man is NOT the measure of all things… God is. If He tells me I am responsible but unable to pay my debt… I believe it. As a matter of fact, He is so worthy that if he decides to throw me into hell after living a life serving Christ, then, so be it… who am I that he should save me.

    WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT FAIRNESS? ALL THAT WE KNOW IS WHAT GOD HAS TOLD US. HOW DO WE KNOW ABOUT MERCY AND GRACE, EXCEPT GOD HAS SHOWED US. NO, WE CANNOT PAY OUR DEBT. THAT IS THE REASON GOD PAYED IT FOR US, IF ONLY WE BELIEVED. AND YOU ARE NOTHING THAT HE SHOULD SAVE YOU, EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE, YET THAT IS GOD’S TERMS.

    … but praise God and Jesus Christ that He did.

    YES, ALL PRAISE AND GLORY BE TO GOD.

  10. 1. Part 2 of 3 – 2 Peter 3
    8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    .
    Follow me along a line of thinking and see if this might illuminate something for you. First, the context of this section of the epistle is concerning eschatology and not soteriology.

    I DISAGREE. IT IS CONCERNING BOTH. IT IS CONCERNING GOD’S PROMISE TO COME AGAIN, JUST AS HE PROMISED THE PEOPLE IN NOAH’S DAY THAT A FLOOD WAS COMING. YET THEY BELIEVED HIM NOT AND PERISHED. THE SAME WILL HAPPEN AT THE END OF THE WORLD. HE HAS PROMISED TO COME AGAIN, BUT THE SCOFFERS SAY “EVERYTHING IS THE SAME AS IN THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD”. YET GOD IN HIS PATIENCE, JUST LIKE HE GAVE THEM 120 YEARS IN NOAH’S DAY, PUTS OFF THE END OF THE WORLD FOR THOSE THAT WILL MAKE A DECISION.
    Peter is addressing concerns about people grumbling about why Christ hasn’t returned yet.
    NO, PETER IS ADDRESSING THE PEOPLE WHO SAY HIS RETURN IS MYTH.
    The thrust of the writing is about that criticism and not salvation.

    I DISAGREE, IT IS ABOUT GOD’S PROMISE TO RETURN, SO BE SAVED BEFORE HE DOES. AFTER HE RETURNS, THERE WILL BE NO CHANCE FOR NON-BELIEVERS.

    Second, you will see that the lord is longsuffering to “us-word” or in another translation “but is patient toward you”.

    IF THAT IS WHAT THAT TRANSLATION SAYS, IT IS WRONG. IT IS MORE LIKE “TOWARD US”. NOT YOU. “US”, MEANING ALL MEN.

    So who is this “you” or “us-ward?” and “”any” and “all” Well we simply look in the beginning of the chapter
    .
    2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you.
    .
    Well if this is the second epistle, let’s look at the beginning of the first Epistle to see who Peter is writing to…
    .
    1 Peter 1: 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
    .
    It’s written to the ELECT of God. He is patient and not willing to have “any” elect perish but that “all” elect will come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth.

    BUT, IN YOUR DEFINTION, ISN’T THAT A GIVEN? THAT THEY WILL ALL COME TO REPENTANCE AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH? WHY PREACH TO THE QUOIR?
    .
    Now you’re probably going to say “Well… it says elect according to God’s foreknowledge, so God knew who would choose Him, so he chooses them. When you look at the Greek root of the word foreknowledge, you come to see that is not a good argument.

    I AGREE. IN A SENSE. “FOREKNOWLEDGE” ACCORDING TO THE OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY SIMPLY MEANS “AWARENESS OF SOMETHING BEFORE IT HAPPENS OR EXISTS”. SO WHAT IS PETER SAYING HERE? IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT GOD KNEW THEM BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. BEFORE THEY WERE EVER BORN. AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOOKING DOWN ANY CORRIDORS. WHAT DOES “ELECT” MEAN? IT MEANS TO “CHOOSE” OR “SINGLE OUT”. SO GOD SINGLED OUT SOMETHING BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. NOW GOD IS “NO RESPECTOR” OF PERSONS (I PETER 1:17), THEREFORE HE DID NOT CHOOSE THEM ON THEIR MERITS, BUT FOR SOME OTHER REASON. THAT IS GOD, FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN WHAT HE WOULD ACCEPT FROM MAN AND WHAT HE WOULD NOT, AND THOSE WHO COME TO HIM ON HIS PREDESTINED RULES ARE THE ONES WHO ARE CHOSEN. THEY ARE THE ELECT.
    .
    This is the exact same greek word “prognosis” which is also used in Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: It is derived from the word “proginosko” (#4267) which is not simply knowing beforehand but, according to the complete word study dictionary, “this term is reserved for those matters which God favorably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained.”

    HOGWASH. HE DID FOREORDAIN AND FREELY CHOOSE, BUT THOSE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORDS. THE WORD “FOREKNOWLEDGE” WAS USED INSTEAD OF “FOREORDAINED”. WHY?
    .
    Look it up yourself brother… this isn’t that God looked down the corridors of time and knew who would choose him so he chose them. That is not faithful exegesis of the biblical text.

    I AGREE.

    We don’t make choices and then move God. God moves first… He chooses first… then we choose Him.

    I DISAGREE. BUT MORE ON THAT IN THE NEXT RESPONSE.
    .
    So… what 2 Peter 3 is espousing is that the gathering of all God’s elect must be complete before the return of Christ… before the second coming. This is not a proof text that God wants all the people in the world to be saved. Did God want the Egyptians to be saved? How come they weren’t told about smearing blood on the doorposts… that’s not fair. Or how about Pharaoh… did he want to save Pharaoh as much as Moses?

    IF THE EGYPTIANS HAD SMEARED BLOOD ON THE DOORPOSTS, WOULD THEY HAVE BEEN SAVED? IF THE ISRAELITES HAD NOT SMEARED THE BLOOD ON THE DOORPOSTS WOULD THEY NOT HAVE PERISHED? DID THEY NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE IT WOULD HAPPEN OR NOT? NO, GOD DID NOT TELL THE EGYPTIANS ABOUT THE BLOOD, BUT WHY? BECAUSE HE HAD ALREADY PASSED JUDGEMENT ON THEM, JUST AS HE DID WITH THE PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY CAME BANGING ON THE DOOR OF THE ARK AFTER THE WATER STARTED FALLING. JUDGEMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD’S OFFER OF SALVATION TO EVERYONE.
    .
    C.H. Spurgeon wrote a little diatribe on the terms “all” and “world” I would like you to consider. He is more succinct than I could ever hope to be…
    .
    “the whole world has gone after him” (Jn. 12:19). Did all the world [really] go after Christ? “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan” (Mk. 1:5). Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God, little children, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one” (1 Jn. 5:19). Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words world and all are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the all means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts — some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile” (Scripture references added).

    YOU KNOW SPURGEON, AS GOOD A PREACHER AS HE WAS, WAS NOT RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING. FOR INSTANCE, HE THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE MORE PEOPLE IN HEAVEN THEN HELL. LOOK IT UP BROTHER.
    .
    Brother… I believe if one really follows proper hermeneutics and exegesis, it becomes clearer that this use of the “world” and “all” means Jew and Gentile alike… it means “all types” of people. Many times world means the world of believers.

    SO WHEN THE BIBLE SAYS THAT “ALL” MEN HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, IT ONLY MEANS THAT ALL SORTS OF MEN HAVE? THAT SOME HAVE NOT? SAME CONTEXT, SAME WORD.
    .
    Christ didn’t die to potentially save people. He died to actually pay for the sins of the elect. He will not fail to redeem His chosen people.

    YET IN HEBREWS 2:9 WE SEE THIS

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    IT SAYS THERE THAT HE DIED FOR EVERY MAN. NOT JUST THE ELECT. AGAIN, YOUR BELIEFS CREATE CONTRADICTIONS IN SCRIPTURE. OR MAYBE YOU CAN MANAGE TO REDEFINE “EVERY MAN” HERE.
    .
    He has always chosen a people for Himself…

    NO DOUBT. HE CHOSE ISRAEL, YET MANY ARE INHELL.

  11. Part 3 of 3 – 1 Tim 2:1-4
    .
    In order to properly analyze the meaning of 1 Tim 2:6, we need to look at another part of the same book written by the same author with the exact same sentence structure and Greek word for “all” which is “pas.” That would be 1 Timothy 6:10. I have included three different translations:
    .
    KJV – For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
    .
    NASB – For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
    .
    ESV – For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
    .
    The NIV also uses the word “kinds” of evil.
    .
    The Greek root is the word “pas” and is used in a lot of different ways. As with many words in the English language, a word is framed or defined by the context that it is used in. For example… if I came home, and opened the refrigerator and said “Who ate all the rice?” Did I really mean who ate all the rice in the entire world? Did I mean who ate all the rice in the entire house? Or… did I mean who ate all the rice left over from last night’s dinner? You can see by this example that “all” is not always “all.”

    I AGREE, THE CONTEXT IS VERY IMPORTANT.
    .
    In the above example, we would all agree that the love of money is not the root of ALL evil… right?

    REALLY? WELL, LET’S LOOK AT THE CONTEXT SHALL WE? THE CONTEXT OF CHAPTER SIX IS TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE PREACHING FOR GAIN. IN OTHER WORDS, MONEY. NOW THE TEXT DOES NOT SAY THAT THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL SINS, BUT THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. EVIL IS THE RESULT OF SIN. ALL EVIL IS NOT TALKING ABOUT EVERY KIND OF EVIL OR SIN, BUT TO A STATE OF EVIL WITHOUT A MIXTURE OF ANY GOOD. THE WORD EVIL DENOTES A CONSEQUENCE OF SIN. NOW, SINCE PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE TEACHING FALSE DOCTRINES FOR MONETARY GAIN HERE, HE IS TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE WHO FALLS INTO A STATE OF ALL EVIL’ WITH NO MIXTURE OF ANYTHING GOOD IN HIS LIFE. THERE IS NO CONSCIOUSNESS OF ANYTHING GOOD IN THIS PERSON’S LIFE. SO THE WORD “ALL” HERE MEANS “ALL”. LIKE IT DOES ANYWHERE ELSE. ALL EVIL HERE IS A STATE OF BEING.

    .
    In Greek, “pas” is used as our two English words “all kinds” or “all sorts” when it follows a list or plethora of things before. In other words, when context directly before the word “pas” is talking about different kinds of things, then so is the word “pas.” Directly preceding these texts, Paul is telling Timothy about “many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.” These “many desires” are the “kinds” of evil that are being described. That is why some of the translations render the word “sorts” and “kinds” along with the word “all” in their translations of evils as can be seen above.

    TOO BAD THE KING JAMES TRANSLATORS DIDN’T HAVE YOU AROUND TO TEACH THEM. AGAIN, ALL IN THIS PASSAGE MEANS ALL. JUST AS IT DOES IN ROMANS 5:12, OR ARE YOU GOING TO TELL US THAT “ALL” HERE JUST MEANS “ALL SORTS”?
    .
    Now… grammatically, the sentence structure of 1 Tim 2:4 is identical to that of 1 Tim 6:10

    NO, IT IS IDENTICAL TO ROMANS 5:12, ROMANS 3:23.
    .
    1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    .
    Notice that preceding this word “all” or “pas”, there is, once again, a list of different types of men… Kings and all sorts of men in authority. So… by standard Greek grammar, it is very likely that the context of the word “pas” is dictating that it’s actual rendering should be all “sorts” or “kinds” of men. When you think about the culture (which proper Hermeneutics dictate must take place), this begins to make a lot of sense.

    ONE OTHER THING ABOUT THE WORDS “SORTS” AND “KINDS” THAT YOU FIND IN THOSE OTHER TRANSLATIONS, THEY ARE NOT IN THE ORIGINALS. THEY WERE PUT THERE BY THOSE TRANSLATORS. AND EVEN IF YOU LEAVE THEM IN THERE, “ALL SORTS OR ALL KINDS” STILL MEANS ALL.
    .
    People did NOT want to pray for rulers. These were the people that taxed them, persecuted them and made their lives miserable most of the time; these were tyrants. Paul is pleading with them to pray for those they hated… that’s why he says “God wants all kinds of men to be saved… pray for everyone.”

    YES, ISN’T IT JUST TOO BAD THAT GOD COULDN’T HAVE JUST SAID “ALL SORTS OR ALL KINDS” INSTEAD OF WHAT HE DID SAY? YOU DO PUT LIMITS ON GOD DON’T YOU? I THOUGHT HE WAS SOVEREIGN? IF HE MEANT ALL SORTS OR ALL KINDS, THEN THAT IS WHAT HE WOULD HAVE SAID. HE DIDN’T.
    .
    This is not saying that God desires all men (every man, woman and child on the face of the planet) to be saved.

    THEN I GUESS GOD DIDN’T MEAN THAT EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH HAS SINNED EITHER.
    .
    Now does that mean that sometimes he does not lament over those that reject Him? Of course it doesn’t. But that is a discussion for another time.

    YES, AND IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

  12. Creationist:
    .
    “All” is a word that is determined by context and to not see that is pure spiritual blindness.
    .
    First you say: “WHAT DOES “ELECT” MEAN? IT MEANS TO “CHOOSE” OR “SINGLE OUT”. SO GOD SINGLED OUT SOMETHING BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. “
    .
    So you are saying that God elected or singled out “something”… He “elected the CONDITIONS of salvation?” I am no Greek scholar, but I know for darn sure that isn’t the way that sentance is grammatically structured.
    .
    Okay… then a few lines later you write.
    .
    “THOSE WHO COME TO HIM ON HIS PREDESTINED RULES ARE THE ONES WHO ARE CHOSEN. THEY ARE THE ELECT.”
    .
    So ultimately, whether we are elected is up to us? We have the power in our hands. I see. We elect ourselves.
    .
    Well don’t tell Barak Obama about this new definition of election, because he will then become president!
    .
    Or you are saying that because we chooose to meet God’s elected conditions then we become “elect.” Wow… ok… so does God elect the person or the condition, because in the same sentence you are attributing the word to two completely seperate ideas.
    .
    This makes NO SENSE at ALL.
    .
    The difference between you an I is that you believe MAN choses first and then God chooses them and I believe God chooses man and then man chooses God. The difference then ultimately lies in who gets the glory for the choice… man, or God. In your system, man gets the glory because he made (on his own) a darn good choice.
    .
    “IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR GOD TO COMMAND ALL MEN TO REPENT AND BELIEVE AND THEY NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO SO.”
    .
    This is a humanistic argument… Paul say this coming 2000 years ago and people were mad then, just like you are now. Read Romans 9.
    .
    19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
    .
    Sound familiar? Sound like your exact question above?? Well here’s the answer.
    .
    20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
    .
    Paul is clear on this…
    .
    16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    .
    Romans 7 states we can not please God… ” 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
    .
    Not able to do so…. NOT ABLE.
    .
    “AND THOSE WHO COME TO HIM ON HIS PREDESTINED RULES ARE THE ONES WHO ARE CHOSEN.”
    .
    We are not able to come… we don’t want to come. God has to change your “wanter.”
    .
    John 6:64-66 64″But there are some of you who do not believe ” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” 66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
    .
    You’re not the first man to ever get angry at the idea that belief is granted by the Father.
    .
    Keep praying and keep reading.
    .
    clay

  13. Quick question, who is edified and glorified with all of this bickering? If you think it’s Jesus, you (both) are wrong.

  14. Quick question, who is edified and glorified with all of this bickering? If you think it’s Jesus, you (both) are wrong.

    Well, God willed it didn’t He? So of course He is edified.

  15. Iron sharpens iron. Let the sparks fly.

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