God’s Providence
Well, I wanted to finally sit and write a post since it has been so long since doing so. The last six months have been extremely busy and this blog was one of the things that suffered.
In the last few months, I attended my first semester of seminary and also found a new home in a new church. Busy, busy, busy… and at times, stressful. God is completely wise and in control, and as always works things for good to those that love God. I wanted to offer encouragement to those that have had similar problems… if you have to stand up for truth, God will see you through it.
Because of our convictions, I tried to open eyes about easy decisionism and pragmatic church evangelism that turned the church into a circus. I tried to put a motion through encouraging our church to follow Resolution no. 6 at last years SBC convention actually advocating church discipline on wayward membership and it was shot down… and instead they disciplined me. They suggested that if I wasn’t happy that perhaps I should just move on.
Well… praise God, because now I am at a truly biblically based church that does believe in correct discipline and loving restoration. God is sovereign and He is good. The Holy Spirit wasn’t moving at that last church and it wasn’t where I needed to be anyway. If a church is led by unregenerate goats, they have to get rid of the sheep… the darkness hates the light and will do everything they can to get rid of it so they can stay in the dark and in their sin. That’s just the way it is. TRUE CHRISTIANS WILL ALWAYS BE PERSECUTED WHETHER THEY ARE IN THE CHURCH OR NOT. If the church does not love the truth, they will hate the regenerate. Haven’t folks been reading the words of Jesus? I mean… he told us it would be this way. Count it all as joy friends.
My advice is find a church that preaches and caters to the sheep and not the goats. Find a church that is led by regenerate men (not women) and that follows the bible in all their affairs. Remember… not all christians are Christians. You have to use discernment. You will know a tree by its fruit. In six short months, we are more loved, more embraced and more challenged than two years in a pragmatic church. There is no comparison… it’s like night and day. They have embraced my seminary education, I ma beginning to teach and preach and am being asked to participate in church leadership. The difference is that we are in the midst of the true body of Christ… not some man-made religious idol that is more about humanism than the almighty God.
Don’t be afraid to do the right thing… don’t please men (including yourself)… please God.
Whether or not a man is faithful to the Divine is not a question for a church, or any other man-driven organization. It is between man and the Divine. Disciplining someone who falls wayward of man’s dogma is ridiculous. It means that those men think that they know the mind of God, and that is truly the greatest arrogance.
spiritual sky said this on January 25, 2009 at 11:43 pm
With all due respect, you are completely and utterly incorrect. The church of Jesus Christ… the true church… His body… is not a man-driven organization. If it is a man-driven organization, it is not the church but rather pretending to be a church and the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with it. In relation to Peter’s faith Jesus said “upon this rock I will build my church.” So you see, the church is not being built by men but by Christ himself. The epistles in the bible are all written to rebuke, exhort, encourage, correct members of the church. Christ’s commands are numerous and we are directed to teach these to disciples… specifically to teach them to obey ALL that He commanded. This is not about man’s dogma but rather God’s word. If you are at a “church” that places the traditions of men above the commands of God… you need to go to a true church.
1 Timothy 4: 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
Mark 7: 6And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7′BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
8″Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.” 9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
The mind of God is revealed in the bible is (more often than not) is perfectly clear. It is man’s arrogance that he feels he does not have to follow God’s commands or twist them around so that they can justify their wicked behavior and sin… and for that arrogance many will suffer eternal condemnation in hell. It is our responsibility as Christians to tell eachother when we are straying off the narrow way.
thepotterandtheclay said this on January 26, 2009 at 4:16 am
The New testament is not the word of God but of men who claimed to be party to Christ. And not even complete at that, for there were dozens of gospels that didn’t even make it in to the bible, cut and pasted by the clergy of the times. Were they more connected to God than we are today? Having faith in God is one thing, having faith in fallable men who lived a thousand years ago..well that one is much much harder.
Also, by telling someone they are off the path YOU think is the right one, you are judging them and thier practices, which only God has the right to do. He knows if people are living in sin, and sees right through hypocrisy. He will judge us all one day, so truly all you have, when the world ends, is yourself-and God- And the knowledge you have lived to his law as best you could.
spiritual sky said this on January 26, 2009 at 5:35 am
Well, first of all, the bible is the inerrant word of God, and if you don’t believe that then we don’t have any common ground.
Second… a man is not justified by his adherence to the law… only Christ did that and in faith in Him, we are justified with God. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God… and if you try to stand on your own righteousness, you will feel the wrath of God. Isaiah says that all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags before the Lord. Romans 3:20 (New American Standard Bible) 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight So you are wrong… the law merely makes us conscious of sin. The righteous shall live by faith… faith in Jesus… and His righteousness is imputed to us and his blood is a propitiation for sin. Any works-based righteousness will fall short of an infinitely holy God. If you rely on the law to justify you, you must be perfect. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
My friend… you are making up a God of your own understanding and that is an idol… a God you can live with… not the God of the bible.
thepotterandtheclay said this on January 26, 2009 at 6:00 am
The point I am trying to make is no one can understand God fully. No matter how many times you read the bible and pray for clarity, we can only understand a shadow of how great his being is.
For example, all beings resonate with energy. You are a man of science I feel- So lets use a musical scale- just per example. God resonates at a gazillion E over middle C. No human can resonate there. Its just impossible. So god sends his son, an emissary if you will. He is of flesh and blood, but still resonates at 1000 perfect E over middle C. No mere mortal can resonate there, but it becomes easier to undestand the resonation. We all try to achieve the resonation of Jesus, but although we are in God’s image, we suffer the curse of Eve, and will never resonate higher than a couple E over middle C. I think as long as we do our very best to train our spiritual voices in Jesus’ image, it is not up to fellow man, but to God, to critique.
I hope I made what I am saying a little clearer. And I do believe in the New Testament, I just don’t feel it’s complete, and so I use the Old testament, the proven word of God, as my journey guide. I’m not out of offend anyone, I just believe that a mind is like a parachute- It has to be open to work.
spiritual sky said this on January 26, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Well, I am very happy that the tone of our conversation is shifting in a positive direction. I get your point, but obviously, I disagree with some of your points and agree with some others.
You are correct… no one can understand God fully. Anyone that is in Christ… born again… is now embarked on a course of sanctification. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within that person and God (not the man) begins to carve out the image of Christ in that man… He begins to conform the man to His image. This is a process, and we are still in the flesh, so there is sin… but there is a sensitivity to sin. The law is written on our hearts (as born again believers) and we become more and more sensitive to sin and can no longer habitually exist in it. Sometimes, personally, I am not aware of my sin until it is pointed out to me… when it is, if I am truly in sin, I am convicted and I repent. If I am not in sin… then no worries.
Now… about your analogy… I like analogies, but they have their limitations. Where yours fails is that we are not tuning forks… we are clay in the hands of the Father. We will resonate at whatever frequency He tells us to resonate at. Specifically the biggest example of this is conversion… regeneration… rebirth. God takes away the heart of stone and gives to man a heart of flesh… a heart that loves Him. Ezekial 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Before we were enemies of God and now we are at peace with God. Our resonant frequency was completely changed… before it resonated (was a slave to) sin and now it resonates (is a slave to) righteousness. We love God and His law more than we love our sin. We do not conform ourselves to Jesus’ image, but God does it. Romans 8:29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Now I know God will judge… but we are told to be discerning, shrewd, and we need to spur eachother toward holy living. Look… if I get thrown out of a church, it does not mean I lose my salvation. Paul told us to examine ourselves… but you will notice Paul did the telling… it wasn’t up to spiritual people to merely resonate in tune with God on their own… they were exhorted. The Old Testament is not different… people were stoned and killed for transgression of the Law… so if you are going to use it as a guide for your journey, then be consistent. The OT says don’t lie… don’t steal… honor your father and mother. Are you seriously telling me that is there was a church member that does these things and does so openly that no one would have an obligation to tell him about those things and urge him to repent? You can’t seriously believe this. There is a line somehere… isn’t there? I mean, at some point is it wrong to ask someone to conform to a common set of rules that the entire organization believes and professes, even if it was secular? Come on now… one knows what the set of beliefs are when they join a church… there is a code of conduct… they have a statement of faith. People are not forced to go there… they submit voluntarilly. If people want a whatever goes kind of place… they should go find it… they exist. Just don’t expect that place to have “Church of Jesus Christ” above the door… that’s not reasonable. If you want Jesus… you have to take up your cross and follow Him. If you want ot wallow in slop… go find a pig pen.
Matthew 28:18-20 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19″Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” These are the words of Jesus… how to build the church. We are to teach all that He commanded. Disciples are people that have “discipline.” It is people that follow rules… though folowing the rules is not what saves us.
All that being said… holy living will not earn us favor with God. The Old Testament is not complete… it is missing the Christ. The entire Old Testament testifies to Jesus… the Savior. As I wrote earlier… the law will not save you. Only God can save you and t hat is through the Son Jesus. As you said, your mind and heart need to be open… and it is God who opens them. To the point, Paul writes – 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: What this means is that if we are born again, our mind and heart is open to the things of God… and we are now subject to our conscience. If we are rebuked by someone our consciense will testify either for or against us. If against… we repent… if for, then no man can be our judge.
Listen friend… it does not matter what you and I think. On this I think we have common ground. It only matters what God’s word is…. and God does tell us the truth… and it is in the bible… and specifically in the New Testament. Jesus wasn’t just a prophet… he is God in the flesh come to die for the sins of the elect… those He will call to repentance, belief and faith. He fulfilled the law we could never have hoped to… He and He alone ends the war between us and God. If you depend on your own righteousness then your pride is the greatest sin you have and that is the same thing that got Adam and Eve to fall. The bible is not a book of fables or good moral stories… it is the complete book of how God saves His people.
The problem with our society… the lost and unregenerate world is that having “an open mind” is the battle cry of the age… and that means that man’s opinion is more important than God’s word. “Woohoo! Anything goes and don’t tell me that I am wrong. What’s true for you is not true for me.” This is post modernism… moral relativism. The problem is… it’s in error.
There is a right and wrong… a black and white… a light and dark. Jesus is the light of the world… the only light… and he told us what was right and wrong… He wrote it in the bible.
If you believe in some sort of God and some sort of judgement… how much do you have to hate someone not to tell them about it and how to avoid it???
thepotterandtheclay said this on January 27, 2009 at 6:08 pm
I think you made quite a good point, I did not see it in the light of flagrancy. I mean, if I saw a man on the street hitting his kid (cruelly), you can bet your sweet aunt fanny I would be on the phone to Social Services.
I DO agree that we are there to support one another. I often try to be a listening ear. I suppose I have been to too many churches where if they don’t like to colour of one’s shirt, you are not as “christian” as they. As you have no qualms about sharing your thoughts, I assume you have been victim to such persecution as well. So I jumped on the defensive there. Also,as you just put in the light of HELPING instead of JUDGING,- makes a BIG difference.
No one likes to be jumped on. And it never helps. Thats why so many poeple have trouble communicating, especially in charged topics such as religion. When preachers “jump” on people it puts them automatically in the defensive. instead of pointing out the shortcoming and guiding them on the right path. I guess it all comes down to presentation. And no, Im not talking about sugar-coating, or removing the more offensive bits of gospel to sell salvation wholesale. You may not need tact or diplomacy to talk to God, he hears your true thoughts anyway. Unfortuantely, those qualities are essential when dealing with fellow man.
God Bless
spiritual sky said this on January 28, 2009 at 4:26 am
I was “persecuted” for my theology and not other silly things. I voiced my opinions regarding “easy believism” and “decisional regeneration” and pragmatic church practices in evangelism. We had muscle men evangelists coming in and I thought it was bringing the world into the church and I made my opinion known. That’s what triggered the discipline… I was “sowing seeds of discord” among the brethren… or at least that was the crime I was accused of. This was merely the straw that broke the camel’s back… it began with our reformed theology and the belief that God must enable men to come to Jesus.
I believe in church discipline… I want people to confront me when I am in sin. The trick is to only submit to people that are truly in Christ. In order to do that, one must be in Christ himself so that he may discern others.
thepotterandtheclay said this on January 28, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Well that still kind of sounds like a silly reason for discipline. I mean, isn’t that why we are all THERE, is to think about action and how it glorifies God? Don’t get me wrong- I enjoy gatherings, and having a little fun. But muscle men? it does sound a bit like they were a fat lady, a midget and an elephant shy of a circus.
But I guess that’s a whole other topic entirely, because it raises the question of using celebrity status to preach the word.In regards to the origional topic I think we are pretty much in agreement as we ever will be, and it opened my eyes to some new persepectives, so thanks for that.
spiritual sky said this on January 28, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Clay,
Why not women if I may ask?
Thanks
Kim
Kim said this on February 21, 2009 at 4:05 am
Kim:
That’s a great question, and all my guidance is from the divinely inspired scriptures… the bible.
1 Timothy 3 (NASB)
Overseers and Deacons
1(A)It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the (B)office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2(C)An overseer, then, must be above reproach, (D)the husband of one wife, (E)temperate, prudent, respectable, (F)hospitable, (G)able to teach,
3(H)not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, (I)free from the love of money.
4He must be one who (J)manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of (K)the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become (L)conceited and fall into the (M)condemnation incurred by the devil.
7And he must (N)have a good reputation with (O)those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and (P)the snare of the devil.
Se also Titus 1:6-8
I think this is abundantly clear teaching that the Pastor or minister needs to be a man. In these verses, man is not used in the “generic sense” but rather explicit. The greek is the same. Women can teachand perform all sorts of other functions in the church… but not lead and not preach. This is part of the biblical model of how a church should be.
Great question… thanks!
clay
thepotterandtheclay said this on February 23, 2009 at 12:37 pm