My Videos

Are any unsaved forgiven?

Arminians pray like Calvinists

Is this a good tract? (1/3)

Is this a good tract? (2/3)

Is this a good tract? (3/3)


8 Responses to “My Videos”

  1. Very interesting videos. And your wife is right, it’s more so when you look at the camera. It makes someone feel like you are talking to them instead of reading monotonatically from text. You reslly get a feel for your passion.

    spiritual sky said this on January 27, 2009 at 7:48 pm

  2. A comment on “Are Any Unsaved Forgiven?: Steve wrote: Do you think it might be possible that different writers of scripture believed different things on this topic? For instance, could Heb 5:11-6:12 be one of those instances?
    .
    Thanks for your comment. I appreciate the opportunity to continue to practice my defense of the faith. Iron sharpens iron, as it is written. I have to first begin by establishing a foundation, since you raised two distinct questions here… not just one. I believe without question that the Bible was written by One Person… not many. The scripture is a God breathed thing that was recorded through men and expressed with certain individual personalities and circumstances, but it is from God… every word of it. That being the case, I believe the bible does not contradict itself… ever. All scripture has to be read in light of other scripture and then the true meaning can (with the Holy Spirit’s illumination) be properly divined. I believe if there is a “contradiction” it is because we do not properly understand it.
    .
    So… answer “Part A” is
    No… they did not believe different things on the topic.

    Now… for Part B.
    .
    Hebrews 6:4-6: For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
    .
    You are apparently asserting that the above passage describes a saved person. I put forth it does not. This is talking about having “tasted” these things. Tasting is not the same as eating or consuming. You can taste without ever swallowing. We must eat of the Bread of Life and we must drink of the Living Water… drink His blood… not taste and swish our mouths out. We must consume. These are not saved, regenerate people. These are people that have received knowledge of the truth and it has been fully revealed to them and they “choose” to eventually reject it. They can have no more “truth” revealed to them; therefore, they cannot “come back.” The problem was, they were never really “there.” This is NOT a scripture that people can lose their salvation.
    .
    So why do I say these things? Well… because other parts of the bible are clear in their apparently “conflicting” viewpoints… and they are not all by the same author. Let’s start with the same author… the author of Hebrews.
    .
    Heb 10:26: For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    .
    “Knowledge of the truth” is not sanctified nor justified nor regenerated. Knowledge is just that… knowledge… revelation is not regeneration. Notice that it also echoes the sentiment from Hebrews 6 above…
    .
    Hebrews 6: 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened … 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
    .
    “Enlightening” is the same thing as being given a “knowledge of the truth” and they both talk about the impossibility to do anything with anyone that came to a full knowledge of the truth but rejected it. That’s it… no more can be done. How much more can you do? Nothing… they are forever lost.
    .
    This is all about perseverance… Hebrews 3:14: For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, .
    Perseverance is a fruit of salvation… an indicator. Only those that persevere until the end are saved… of God’s elect. This sentiment is echoed in other places as well.
    .
    Rev 3:5: He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
    .
    Now before you jump all over the “I will not erase his name” part, let me head you off. Just because Jesus says that he will not erase “his name” from the book of life, does not mean that he DOES erase others names. That does not logically follow. It might be so, but does not necessarily follow. That’s why it has to be read and brought in line with all other scripture. This is an assurance from Jesus. This is saying you can trust God. He’s not going to forsake you in the end.
    .
    You can not lose your salvation… there are many places in the bible that are clear about this.
    .
    John 6:39 Jesus clearly states that “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. Philippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
    .
    Romans 8:38-9 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    .
    I used to believe that the list was missing something… namely me. I thought I could separate myself from the love of Christ… then I came to the realization that I am in the list… I am a created thing.

    thepotterandtheclay said this on March 9, 2009 at 4:32 pm

  3. Thanks for your response. You provide a clear, concise, and well thought-out refute of my assertion. Additionally, there is humility in your response, which isn’t something I encounter a lot from Calvinists.

    That being said, I’m sure it is no surprise that I disagree with you on both points. I don’t want to get into your first point of the bible containing one consistent position on its topics, as that is a lengthy discussion; one better saved for another day.
    So, let’s stick to the Hebrews reference. First of all, I think you make a mistake in concentrating on verses 6:4-6. These verses, in and of themselves, tell us nothing about whom the writer is referring. We can only discover this by reading the surrounding verses. And in this context, I believe it becomes apparent to whom the writer is referring. Let’s examine.
    5:11 “…but it is hard to explain because YOU are slow to learn…”

    5:12 “…YOU ought to be teachers, YOU need someone to teach YOU the elementary truths of God’s word…YOU need milk…”

    6:1 “…let US leave the elementary teachings…”

    6:9 “…we are confident of better things in YOUR case…”

    6:10 “… he (god) will not forget YOUR work and the love….”

    6:11 “We want each of YOU to show this same diligence to the very end”

    6:12: “We do not want YOU to become lazy…”

    I believe it is obvious that the writer is referring to Christians. Now these Christians were no doubt immature, but Christians nonetheless.

    For me to accept your explanation, I must believe that the writer is referring to Christians in Heb 5:11-6:3, but then suddenly changes the topic to talk about an entirely different group of people in 6:4-6, only to talk about Christians again in 6:9-12. This does not seem likely to me. Instead, I think there is an underlying theme, and that theme is “grow up or you will be cut off.”

    Now you bring up an interesting point when you discuss “knowledge of the truth.” And, I think we would all agree that knowledge isn’t the only ingredient required. However, notice the writer’s discussion of knowledge with regard to the believers in this section.

    5:12 “In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers…”.

    It appears that these readers had received extensive training. In fact, they had enough knowledge to be teachers. Could it even be said that this group was “enlightened?”

    You also discuss that the individuals mentioned in 6:4-6 may have tasted without ever swallowing. And although that might be true, I don’t think it fits the context of the surrounding verses. In addition to saying that they “tasted,” the writer also says that they were “partakers.” There is a strong analogy to eating here, don’t you think? And it would seem out of place unless this was somehow tied to the preceding verses.

    Well, we find that very thing: 5:13 “Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature…”

    I believe that this analogy to food, along with the context of talking only about Christians, makes a compelling case that the writer is warning his immature Christians to grow up or they might fall away.

    Thanks for your time. And, might I add one final thing? I’ve had some brief exchanges with your wife and she is truly a delight.

    Take care,

    Steve

    Steve said this on March 10, 2009 at 12:13 am

  4. Steve:

    I am accused of a lot of things, but being humble is usually not one of them! LOL
    .
    I think your argument is weak, and here’s why.
    .
    When I address the congregation… I say “brethren”, or “brothers and sisters.” Am I addressing Christians? Well… yes… and no. In some sense, they are all Christians… or so they say. I know, however, full well that if we are lucky, maybe 30% of those in the church are actually saved. When I go to a convention where “christians” are, I refer to them as brother or sister. As a preacher, I exhort the professing believer to grow up… to get busy… to exhibit fruit. Some will appear to bear fruit, but it may be legalism and an extremely deceiving work of the flesh. Some will sit there like a lump.
    .
    Not all Israel is Israel (Rom 9:6) and not all “Christians” are Christians. I can not and must not deem them saved or unsaved, but spurn them all to good works and take them at face value on their profession. They will either be pricked in the heart and respond at the behest of the Holy Spirit or not… if they do not, then they “fall away.” The conclusion is still the same… they went out from us, because they were never really of us. they weren’t Christians… just imposters… goats dressed up to look like sheep.
    .
    1 John 2:19
    They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
    .
    It just doesn’t get any clearer than this… Perseverence to the end is ultimately the only indicator of salvation… and the author of Hebrews says the exact same thing… Hebrews 3:14: For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, . That is to say, that if we do not hold fast firm until the end, we have not become partakers of Christ… i.e. not saved… not Christian… not “in Him.”
    .
    Tim

    thepotterandtheclay said this on March 10, 2009 at 4:21 am

  5. Hi Tim,

    Thanks for the response. Again, it was well thought-out.

    I agree that not everyone in a church would qualify as a Christian. However, is that the point that the writer of Hebrews is making? Is he telling his readers that some may not be saved, or is he simply telling them to grow up? And if they were never Christian, as you claim, why the warning that if they “fall way” that they will never “be brought back to repentance?” Doesn’t this imply that this is their only chance to get it right?

    Now I’m off to work. Have a good day.

    Steve

    Steve said this on March 10, 2009 at 11:04 am

  6. Steve:
    .
    I am a thinker… a physicist and mathematician. I do not take anything on totally blind faith except the places where divine tension exists.
    .
    I agree this is a troubling verse. If it is speaking of salvation, it does indeed preclude having a second chance… and that is terrifying. Some people that use this text to justify falling away actually believe people need to be re-saved, and that is theologically inconsistent. I do not think this is the case becasue the author of Hebrews clearly states that you are partakers IF you persevere…. IF you persevere THEN you are partakers. I would hope that you agree that if you believe that the author is talking about losing salvation, then he is being inconsistent with HIMSELF… yes?
    .
    This is a warning… it is an exhortation against apostacy… urging to hold fast… and it is intended to fighten people… put the fear of God in them. John MacArthur’s study note indicates that this greek word in the Septuagint translated “falling away” means extreme unfaithfullness or apostacy.
    .
    Bottom line… I just tell people to repent… period. I will let God decide whether they will be granted repentance… and that includes you… you need to repent.
    .
    Tim

    thepotterandtheclay said this on March 10, 2009 at 4:06 pm

  7. Hi Tim,

    If this verse precludes a second chance (which I agree), doesn’t it imply a first chance? And if there is a first chance, but not a second, then doesn’t this go against the doctrine of election.

    Additionally, I’ve never understood the role of fear for the calvinist. It obviously has a purpose for the arminain, but seems without value to a five-pointer.

    Take care,

    Steve

    Steve said this on March 10, 2009 at 5:36 pm

  8. Steve:
    .
    This is where we begin to delve into Divine Tension.
    .
    First, the text is not saying there is “no second chance for salvation.” It says they can not come back to “repentance.” For salvation, one must have belief (faith) and repentance. If people fall away, they were never part of God’s elect. Only if they persevere are they proven to be the chosen of God.
    .
    Second… man is responsible to respond to God… God enables him to do so. Does he choose God? Yes… of course he does… but only with the assistance of God at His good pleasure.
    .
    Fear? Very useful… assurance is a double edged sword… I exibit good fruit to now, therefore, I have good assurance that God will keep me becasue the bible says so. However, I must continue to look at myself and “test myself” to see if I am in the faith. When I sin… it worries me… enough to repent. You might want to read my blog entry on man’s freesom and God’s sovereignty… I cover compatibilism which is what I believe..
    .
    Tim

    thepotterandtheclay said this on March 10, 2009 at 8:44 pm

Leave a Reply